tbqh xmpp is a good standard
- it works over shitty networks, like when I drop to 2g
- extensible as hell
- e2e encryption!!!
- open!!!!!
- federation!!!!!
- conversations is a rad client
@luna sometimes I do too. But then I remember that if I did another account I would forgot about one of them. And them I say fuck it
@luna I mean, it's not against the rules and most people are chill about it (even because if they want to, the language filter most likely catchs them) so there is really no harm.
@ardydo I thought the language filter only applied to external toots from other instances, not from the same instance
I guess I was wrong :p
@luna now that you're talking I'm not sure... I just assumed it was global since it was on the settings and not on each column like the filters.
alo @renatolond , como funciona?
@renatolond obg lond <3
@ardydo @renatolond dei uma olhada, achei isso: https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/blob/master/streaming/index.js#L343
chuto que seja global mesmo
@luna I think it makes sense that we have a web-centric actor model system for web systems with ActivityPub, but I have always admired XMPP's design, esp also how it's also mostly knowingly aware that it's an actor model system
-file transfer won't work unless every node supports HTTP upload XEP because default file uploads work peer-to-peer and don't get along with NAT
-it's not exactly extensible, rather protocol is evolved using extensions, and many XEPs that make XMPP usable in modern age are still in DRAFT stage and supported by 1-2 clients.
-e2e encryption is in early stage if you count OMEMO and OTG isn't standard, rather a convention. Again, only like 1-2 client supports it
- yes
- yes
- conversations is THE ONLY USABLE CLIENT
- I agree that file transfers suck, but most platforms I use fall apart as soon as a 3G/4G blackspot, xmpp continues without any problems
- not everyone will agree on the same ideas or XEPs for many reasons (developer without time, doesn't agree with the xep, etc), and that's the beauty of it being extensible, people get to have opinions on the protocol
- imo it is better than nothing at all
- yes, the "rad" part about it is pushing other servers to add XEPs that make ux better
- for me even xmpp fails to work in 2G but i think it's really just that 2G sucks here, or you only need bigger timeouts for it.
- having opinions and discussing the standards is good, but XMPP is evolving just too damn slow, i mean Vector.im made Matrix and Riot in same timespan as XMPP still debating how MAM (offline messages) should be implemented (XEP-0313, still at Experimental stage). Entire new protocol and usable client for it, created while XMPP stuck in quagmire.
- something is better than nothing.
- well it pushed servers to add XEPs long time ago. I set up Prosody for MAM and carbons. What next? Only clients that support them are: Profanity (TUI), Conversations(Android), Gajim (Win/Linux), out of these only Conversations can be considered usable. We have zero decent clients on iOS, zero decent clients on macOS, zero decent clients on Linux and Windows. Decent = supporting modern XEPs and having acceptable UX.
- XMPP evolving slowly is ""intended"", look how many people are still on http/1.1 and aren't on http/2 for example (not a direct comparison, but I hope the idea gets through). I really don't like Matrix's ecosystem. The protocol might've finished faster than MAM, but the result is still a mostly centralized system revolving around matrix.org.
- I agree that not many decent clients are out there (hoping that Dino becomes one for Linux).
The comparison with http/2 is really bad, because browsers still have a race, and chrome wants to be better for google's sake, firefox tries it's best to get an upper hand on chrome, and so the development is way faster and still standardized. With XMPP there's no race, or rather there's race between several immobile stones an boulders.
>mostly centralized system revolving around matrix.org.
you can say the same about large jabber instances like in Russia it's jabber.ru, but both with matrix and with xmpp you can host your own server or join other one - i use matrix.heldscal.la for example. And on top of that - matrix is still relatively young and unpopular, but surprisingly usable, even with bloated electron client and sometimes slow server.
XMPP is still a standard, not a very famous one, because mostly open source projects don't know how to marketing, and because of that there's not much of a competition.
Bigger point about Matrix is that the first thing you see once you reach a client and make an account is use the matrix.org HS
XMPP's "Getting Started" page shows a list of servers directly, I took quite some time to find a list for Matrix and after that most instances I found were registration-closed, which sucks
@hj @luna hey, just wanted to say, this is exactly why we're hosting our own ejabberd instance with luna, so we can enable all the cool XEPs (especially XEP-163, as P2P transfers are indeed a pain).
Conversations isn't the only usable client, though it's the only modern one. Gajim and dino.im still work rather well, on pc.
@luna XMPP/Jabber also has what I'm coming to believe is a very important feature in federated systems: You can use SRV records to say "yeah, this is the domain for the user's identity, but the server is *hosted* over thataway".
If I get tired of running a Jabber server, I can repoint the SRV records and a friend can take up the hosting. Maintaining a few DNS records is no trouble.
@varx @luna It also means you can switch providers if using a hosted service and your own domain.
Email has this property; I've hostedmy domain's email with Google, Cotse, and now Fastmail, no problem. Jabber also has this property.
Mastodon does *not* as far as I know, which is a shame. Probably locked in, though. Hard to add a layer of indirection like that later.
@varx @luna In my own notes on the subject, I split user identity into "nominative" (username), "locative" (where do you go to interact), and "attributive" (crypto key IDs, if you're using signed and encrypted messages). I should write up a proper blog post on what I mean, but you can see that most systems conflate nominative and locative. (These are working names, by the way; I'm probably using the words wrong.) And locative can be split via indirection: Identity vs. hosting.
@bhtooefr @luna Ooog, yes, this looks familiar. I think I encountered an instance that was set up this way, and it was really confusing to interact with. I'm not sure if it was due to one of the Known Issues listed there, but either way it was... not graceful.
cc @TheGibson
@varx @luna @thegibson sergal.org is set up that way. From Mastodon instances it looks fine and behaves exactly right. From Pleroma instances, it... well it *WORKS*, but...: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/issues/201
@varx @luna @thegibson I think that guide was written circa Mastodon 1.3-1.4, and most of the known issues don't actually matter now for Mastodon.
@bhtooefr @luna @TheGibson Interesting, thanks!
*hurriedly adjusts blog post draft*
@varx I learned about SRV records yesterday and they're really good, tbh.
Still looking forward to putting it on my XMPP production env
@luna On a side note, if you're looking for a good desktop client, there is now Dino :).
@luna thx 4 the reminder I will reinstall on my own hardware.
@luna What are your thoughts about Matrix? I like that it includes all those features you need various extensions for in XMPP and uses JSON instead of XML. But their RIOT client is a resource hog. And it's too new so no widespread support...
@mbirth I don't think I would be using Matrix any time soon (I tried).
JSON is good for developers, but conceptually not having to transmit even more data about routes makes the overall protocol overhead smaller. XMPP runs over a single TCP connection, where as with most JSON APIs you have multiple routes with multiple payloads and each requires a new TCP connection each (there is HTTP Streaming and Websockets but I don't see those being used on the client side).
on a side note I should get a proper account for english toots
I feel like I'm doing wrong by writing english in a brazillian instance lol